You've said it's a sequel and you've said that you only made a sequel because the file got too big, therefore it isn't a sequel it's updates of the first game. You can add another file into the original. People who already bought the first one will have access to it.
If you don't want to pay for the new content that's fine. But I need to charge for the time I'm spending on this because I can't work for free. I spend a lot of time making these games. I don't think it's very expensive for the amount of content you get.
When they pay you recived for lewd mod 1 wasnt enough the normal thing to do is raise the price, not break the game up into pieces. Especially since lewd mod 1 promised all future updates to buyers. At best its false advertisement and at worst bait and switch.
I run a small construction company and if i take on a job too cheap (have happened once) i have to eat the loss, i cant lock up 2 rooms and demand payment to give them access.
And while i agree $5 is a good price for the current content thats what should have been charged for lewd mod 1, maybe even $10 so you can continue the work.
To be fair, when you build a house, there is a defined end-state and you're getting paid by one individual. You can negotiate an agreed amount and you are guaranteed (at least contractually) that you will receive that amount. This situation is quite a bit different, his work is ongoing with no defined end-state, and whether or not he makes enough to cover his costs is down to whether or not enough people buy.
If double the number of people had purchased LewdMod1, it may not have been necessary to split it.
That "Eat the loss" is a lot easier to justify when you're talking about a project that can take a year at most, not when this may be a commitment that you keep for years into the future.
All fair points, but again, dont promise the full product if you dont know if you can deliver. If LewdMod1 hadnt promised all future updates off the game then the split would have been fine.
Glad to see one of my favorite series coming back! Always love coming back to this game.
Now, I did enjoy the 1st day (or 15th day?) of this new installment, but I gotta say it's slightly confusing the way it's set up currently. It seems like a mix between a sequel and a continuation of the previous story. And it conflicts in a way that just sort of left me confused, like it almost seems like all these characters I've known for roughly 2 weeks ingame suddenly were stricken with amnesia and forgot who the mc ever was. And you're left in weird state between the old and the new.
And I think that's the problem, as much as I love this game, and believe me, I love it a lot. It's neither a continuation or a sequel, It's just a weird mix of the two. And honestly, I like both ideas, I wouldn't mind having either one (both preferably!), But I believe one must come first and then the next.
I'm not sure if the dev is up for suggestions, but I'll give my piece.
If the dev truly wants to start fresh with a sequel, then I would say the best way to do that is to wrap up LM1, and a simple way to do this is to maybe fire our player, in fact, day 13 & 14 put us in a spot where we broke several rules. maybe the dev could work off that? And then start LM2 as a new employee. that way characters don't need to seem awkward explaining how to do a job I've supposedly been doing for 2 weeks.
But if the dev wants to continue the current story, I would say to drop all the new introductions and such and bring us back to where we were, and give us a true day 15 instead of a day 1.2.
I know the dev has been getting a lot of negativity for this release, and I think the main reason is because of "price" issue. I have to say, first off, that 4.80 is not a bad price at all for this game, but I think the confusion lies in people not sure what exactly they're getting. I would say the dev's best bet is to A) Merge LM1 & 2 and just make it $4.80 or B) Make the game a true sequel so people don't believe they're buying the same game twice.
And lastly, I hope you're doing okay dev. I know this is probably a sucky situation for you. A lot of people truly are unjustly upset over something small. But it seems like a lot of people here just want what's best for the game. Including myself. I'm sorry if any of this seemed like an attack but it is not in anyway! I know a lot of hard work goes into this game, and it seems like a series you care about, so I'm sure you'll make the decision you believe is best for the game.
The issue isnt "Price", i agree that $5 isnt bad, the problem is the shady business practices.
The page for lewd mod 1 promised buyers all future updates to the game. (And it was removed when lewd mod 2 released so basically a bait and switch)
The same promise was on this page aswell until it was pointed out in the comments that if the games is broken up into more installments it would be a bait and switch again.
The normal thing developers here do when their games get bigger and more content is raise the price, not break it up into several games.
So I was curious about something. If this is a continuation that uses a new file because of so many changes to the old one do I have to buy it as well? If it's just gonna turn into a sequel can the first one have an ended that doesn't leave a massive cliff hanger? I would be fine with buying the second one heck I even wanna buy the Christmas one the problem is I don't make a lot of money so I can't keep buying new versions. When I have the money I plan on showing my appreciation.
To the person who left a GIANT anonymous tip today... THANK YOU! Thank you so much, that's given me such a great boost! I'm glad you've been enjoying the game!
Great game and keep up the excellent work. Writing and art is great.
Only 2 thoughts.
1 I was also surprised at seeing this as part 2 but happy to continue to support so no big deal. Would just suggest better communication if you plan to make part 3 at day 31 :)
2 would be great if there was a album option both for the conversational pictures and for the completed chapters. Especially for the conversation ones as being able to go back and see full screen shots via a 'app gallery' or message history would be good.
Overall awesome and looking forward to seeing what comes next both in this game and any others you create
So, I understand why people would be peeved at the principle of the thing—being told one purchase would get you the whole game, and then having that "promise" reneged might not feel great. Describing this game as a "sequel" when it's being developed as a continual story also isn't very convincing as an explanation—it feels more like an ad-hoc justification. This all strikes me as a bit of a communications fumble. Maybe something to learn from in the future.
But at the end of the day, I can't muster any real ire about it, because now, between Lewd Mod 1 and Lewd Mod 2, I've spent the grand fortune of $4.40 on this game. Oh no. I've impulse-bought things that cost much, much more.
I enjoy the game, and I want to support the creator as they continue to make it. The Patreon tier for uncensored Android updates and access to all the illustrations would be $4.50 a month, which I can't fit into my budget—but $2 for a new chapter of the game after about a year? Yeah, I can do that.
I'm not interested in expecting people to be perfect. I think the way this was handled wasn't ideal, and it's still no skin off my back to toss a couple bucks more to the creator.
Thanks so much for saying this! I did consider ending the game completely after chapter 14 when it looked like the file I was using couldn't take any more. But people seem to love it, and I enjoy making the content, so I'll continue!
I never comment but I felt the need to with all this negativity with the 2nd game (aka continuation from 1) and so I wanted to write some good feelings.
Firstly really feel proud about yourself , seriously I mean it.
I'm assuming you're having to balance dev time with other irl commitments and you're providing episodes at a fairly rapid rate compared to other indie devs.
You've provided a charming little gem of a game for all of us to joy and both games are less than a price of a coffee!!!
Always looking forward to see what is coming up in the next days and always gives me a smile when I see a new update notification.
The split into two parts took many by surprise. But the game is of such high quality that I didn't hesitate to pick up the sequel. I'm hoping we get another couple of weeks of story before the next iteration, but this has to be one of the best adult games I've ever played.
Purchase the full game below. You'll receive all future updates. "
This was on the Lewd Mod page aswell before the game was split into two. It sets a bad precedent. Just a heads up that you might not get the full game, no way of knowing how many days will be in this version before the story continues in Lewd mod 3. And why stop at 3, maybe 4 and 5 aswell.
Just bought the first one and and played it non-stop! The premise is awesome, with great writing and artwork. Can't wait to play the second now. I'll be eagerly awaiting for updates.
I dont mind the price, together 1 and 2 are still one of the cheapest good games on here. I do think however this change might have been better received if you had just increased the price and released Lewd Mod as 2 parts under the original page. IIRC you already mentioned after release of Day 14 that the price would be going up again soon.
Anyway, hopefully things will calm down a bit
I noticed a spelling error on this page, by the way.
Hmm maybe you're right, not sure. I thought instead of increasing the price (which would affect people who hadn't bought yet) it best to make a separate sequel, & as a new game meant a clear separate URL too. Dunno. Maybe I should have done it differently. Thanks for spotting that error, I'll get that fixed asap!
I'm not paying for the game twice, its a nice game and all but how do I know you won't do the same again, I'm sorry but I can't support all the creators I love but I might come back to the game later, it's not that I think that you would try to take us as much money as you can but I have supported others projects before that ended up on nothing and I put a lot of money, I don't know if you would read this but the game would be better if it were more sandbox, like go to the work in the morning and talking with others in the night and weekend, I don't know if the program you use is able to do something like that but it would be nice, and I would be pleased to put more money in a game like that, I love your game, but I will wait to see how you keep it in the future, best of lucks for you and I hope your game do good.
Thanks for the feedback! So is it the parts where you talk to Sophie/Maddie etc that you'd rather skip, to focus on just doing the work? Is that right?
I didn't mean it like that, it would be nice to have conversations with characters off work, that way we can see more of the life's of the different characters, that way you could put more text an history in the game, I loved the game but im going to put it on wait for now, but best of lucks for you ;)
The idea to try make us pay twice for the same game wasn't very nice of you, I won't buy it again, and I feel straight up cheated. This bullshit about the game being slow is just an excuse.
I'm stuck on one of the levels. Ingrid said that I have to pick the photos with eyebrows or lips, no nipples and when I do exactly that it says that I got some wrong. I have tried with no bare buts and other ones to bot the same response. Any help?
I've just tested this & I think everything is correct. Bare butts are definitely ok (in Day 15 anyway), as long as there is a face (lips & eyebrows) & no nipples.
Are you supposed to get it wrong multiple times? I tried the same thing again now and it said that I got one wrong and don't let it happen again. And then it continued to the next level.
I don't suppose you could tell me exactly which bit it was? What did Ingrid say exactly afterwards? It's possible I've got this wrong and need to fix it, but can't find the bit you mean
Why do people complain to pay again, this is a very awesome and enjoyable game for a price of 2$, we received more than we pay for. Some games is more pricey but boring. It's not like the game is 10$, if it makes you entertained then what we pay for is worth it. <3
'this is a very awesome and enjoyable game for a price of 2$"
Which is what we paid, with the promise that we'd get the full game. Now the dev has decided to double the price, and leave those unwilling to pay with access the only half the game.
Hey man, great content and game, good idea to make that part 2 for you to be able to continue, and I'm happy to send some more money to have access to it, you truly deserve it !
One only regret on the games, choices aren't important through chapters, like if you say to Sophie that you love bushes, she will shaved anyway !
But still the game is super cool ! Take care and keep it up
It should be cool at least release updates more fast to non patreons after they get it. I mean, you wait ages for an update to come and there's not even that much news about progress if you're not on patreon. I'd like to afford to subscribe to you, but converting currency for my country is insane.
Sorry! Unfortunately the file I was using was getting too long & slow, so that's why I'm continuing the story in a sequel. I just couldn't add more content into that file.
Oh and its not to hate or anything I really like the game, and I don't mind paying for it. If you wonna charge the itch.io people 2$ for a part 2 thats fine. Just be honest about it. People love transparency.
Unfortunately the file I was using was getting too long & slow, so that's why I'm continuing the story in a sequel. Lewd mod 1 has 14 chapters, and the new chapters will be added to lewd mod 2.
I'm sad that this game was split into another part. I wish I could support on Patreon but as of now I can't (difficult to set up that system where I am). :( It's really fun to play through and I hope we itch.io players get Day 16 as soon as possible :D Thanks for your hard work!
Yes the story will continue in this game. Unfortunately I had to start on a new file because the software was getting too slow as the story was getting longer.
Sorry if you feel like that. The price of the game is quite cheap though, & I do spend a long time making it every month. Unfortunately I can't work for free
It's a shame that much people don't see this, the creation of artistic content is valuable, I'm happy that you have decided to continue this project, I'll buy it as many parts as you publish! Keep up the good work!
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You've said it's a sequel and you've said that you only made a sequel because the file got too big, therefore it isn't a sequel it's updates of the first game. You can add another file into the original. People who already bought the first one will have access to it.
If you don't want to pay for the new content that's fine. But I need to charge for the time I'm spending on this because I can't work for free. I spend a lot of time making these games. I don't think it's very expensive for the amount of content you get.
I agree with you but are you atleast releasing the next day on here then? It's been a very long time on patreon already. We also paid for it.
Yep, will upload soon! 🙂
I've uploaded Day 20 here now :-)
Day 21 is on Patreon, & I've started working on Day 22
When they pay you recived for lewd mod 1 wasnt enough the normal thing to do is raise the price, not break the game up into pieces. Especially since lewd mod 1 promised all future updates to buyers. At best its false advertisement and at worst bait and switch.
I run a small construction company and if i take on a job too cheap (have happened once) i have to eat the loss, i cant lock up 2 rooms and demand payment to give them access.
And while i agree $5 is a good price for the current content thats what should have been charged for lewd mod 1, maybe even $10 so you can continue the work.
To be fair, when you build a house, there is a defined end-state and you're getting paid by one individual. You can negotiate an agreed amount and you are guaranteed (at least contractually) that you will receive that amount. This situation is quite a bit different, his work is ongoing with no defined end-state, and whether or not he makes enough to cover his costs is down to whether or not enough people buy.
If double the number of people had purchased LewdMod1, it may not have been necessary to split it.
That "Eat the loss" is a lot easier to justify when you're talking about a project that can take a year at most, not when this may be a commitment that you keep for years into the future.
All fair points, but again, dont promise the full product if you dont know if you can deliver. If LewdMod1 hadnt promised all future updates off the game then the split would have been fine.
Glad to see one of my favorite series coming back! Always love coming back to this game.
Now, I did enjoy the 1st day (or 15th day?) of this new installment, but I gotta say it's slightly confusing the way it's set up currently. It seems like a mix between a sequel and a continuation of the previous story. And it conflicts in a way that just sort of left me confused, like it almost seems like all these characters I've known for roughly 2 weeks ingame suddenly were stricken with amnesia and forgot who the mc ever was. And you're left in weird state between the old and the new.
And I think that's the problem, as much as I love this game, and believe me, I love it a lot. It's neither a continuation or a sequel, It's just a weird mix of the two. And honestly, I like both ideas, I wouldn't mind having either one (both preferably!), But I believe one must come first and then the next.
I'm not sure if the dev is up for suggestions, but I'll give my piece.
If the dev truly wants to start fresh with a sequel, then I would say the best way to do that is to wrap up LM1, and a simple way to do this is to maybe fire our player, in fact, day 13 & 14 put us in a spot where we broke several rules. maybe the dev could work off that? And then start LM2 as a new employee. that way characters don't need to seem awkward explaining how to do a job I've supposedly been doing for 2 weeks.
But if the dev wants to continue the current story, I would say to drop all the new introductions and such and bring us back to where we were, and give us a true day 15 instead of a day 1.2.
I know the dev has been getting a lot of negativity for this release, and I think the main reason is because of "price" issue. I have to say, first off, that 4.80 is not a bad price at all for this game, but I think the confusion lies in people not sure what exactly they're getting. I would say the dev's best bet is to A) Merge LM1 & 2 and just make it $4.80 or B) Make the game a true sequel so people don't believe they're buying the same game twice.
And lastly, I hope you're doing okay dev. I know this is probably a sucky situation for you. A lot of people truly are unjustly upset over something small. But it seems like a lot of people here just want what's best for the game. Including myself. I'm sorry if any of this seemed like an attack but it is not in anyway! I know a lot of hard work goes into this game, and it seems like a series you care about, so I'm sure you'll make the decision you believe is best for the game.
I can't wait to see what's in store for LM! :)
The issue isnt "Price", i agree that $5 isnt bad, the problem is the shady business practices.
The page for lewd mod 1 promised buyers all future updates to the game. (And it was removed when lewd mod 2 released so basically a bait and switch)
The same promise was on this page aswell until it was pointed out in the comments that if the games is broken up into more installments it would be a bait and switch again.
The normal thing developers here do when their games get bigger and more content is raise the price, not break it up into several games.
Can't wait for the next update !!
Great! Day 19 is out now (and Day 20 on Patreon)
So I was curious about something. If this is a continuation that uses a new file because of so many changes to the old one do I have to buy it as well? If it's just gonna turn into a sequel can the first one have an ended that doesn't leave a massive cliff hanger? I would be fine with buying the second one heck I even wanna buy the Christmas one the problem is I don't make a lot of money so I can't keep buying new versions. When I have the money I plan on showing my appreciation.
To the person who left a GIANT anonymous tip today... THANK YOU! Thank you so much, that's given me such a great boost! I'm glad you've been enjoying the game!
Great game and keep up the excellent work. Writing and art is great.
Only 2 thoughts.
1 I was also surprised at seeing this as part 2 but happy to continue to support so no big deal. Would just suggest better communication if you plan to make part 3 at day 31 :)
2 would be great if there was a album option both for the conversational pictures and for the completed chapters. Especially for the conversation ones as being able to go back and see full screen shots via a 'app gallery' or message history would be good.
Overall awesome and looking forward to seeing what comes next both in this game and any others you create
Thanks very much for the feedback! :-)
Thanks very much, oh yes I'm planning some great things for Ingrid eventually!
So, I understand why people would be peeved at the principle of the thing—being told one purchase would get you the whole game, and then having that "promise" reneged might not feel great. Describing this game as a "sequel" when it's being developed as a continual story also isn't very convincing as an explanation—it feels more like an ad-hoc justification. This all strikes me as a bit of a communications fumble. Maybe something to learn from in the future.
But at the end of the day, I can't muster any real ire about it, because now, between Lewd Mod 1 and Lewd Mod 2, I've spent the grand fortune of $4.40 on this game. Oh no. I've impulse-bought things that cost much, much more.
I enjoy the game, and I want to support the creator as they continue to make it. The Patreon tier for uncensored Android updates and access to all the illustrations would be $4.50 a month, which I can't fit into my budget—but $2 for a new chapter of the game after about a year? Yeah, I can do that.
I'm not interested in expecting people to be perfect. I think the way this was handled wasn't ideal, and it's still no skin off my back to toss a couple bucks more to the creator.
Thanks for the game.
Thanks so much for saying this! I did consider ending the game completely after chapter 14 when it looked like the file I was using couldn't take any more. But people seem to love it, and I enjoy making the content, so I'll continue!
Hey HH Richards,
I never comment but I felt the need to with all this negativity with the 2nd game (aka continuation from 1) and so I wanted to write some good feelings.
Firstly really feel proud about yourself , seriously I mean it.
I'm assuming you're having to balance dev time with other irl commitments and you're providing episodes at a fairly rapid rate compared to other indie devs.
You've provided a charming little gem of a game for all of us to joy and both games are less than a price of a coffee!!!
Always looking forward to see what is coming up in the next days and always gives me a smile when I see a new update notification.
Keep up the amazing work and thank you :)
Thanks so much! This really does mean a lot to me!
The split into two parts took many by surprise. But the game is of such high quality that I didn't hesitate to pick up the sequel. I'm hoping we get another couple of weeks of story before the next iteration, but this has to be one of the best adult games I've ever played.
"Buy the full game here on Itch.io
Purchase the full game below. You'll receive all future updates. "
This was on the Lewd Mod page aswell before the game was split into two.
It sets a bad precedent.
Just a heads up that you might not get the full game, no way of knowing how many days will be in this version before the story continues in Lewd mod 3. And why stop at 3, maybe 4 and 5 aswell.
Agree with you and the worst I bought the second part and is even worst that the first. It repeats it self again with nothing happening.
Just bought the first one and and played it non-stop! The premise is awesome, with great writing and artwork. Can't wait to play the second now. I'll be eagerly awaiting for updates.
Glad you liked it! I'm working on the next chapter right now!
I dont mind the price, together 1 and 2 are still one of the cheapest good games on here. I do think however this change might have been better received if you had just increased the price and released Lewd Mod as 2 parts under the original page. IIRC you already mentioned after release of Day 14 that the price would be going up again soon.
Anyway, hopefully things will calm down a bit
I noticed a spelling error on this page, by the way.
Hmm maybe you're right, not sure. I thought instead of increasing the price (which would affect people who hadn't bought yet) it best to make a separate sequel, & as a new game meant a clear separate URL too. Dunno. Maybe I should have done it differently. Thanks for spotting that error, I'll get that fixed asap!
I'm not paying for the game twice, its a nice game and all but how do I know you won't do the same again, I'm sorry but I can't support all the creators I love but I might come back to the game later, it's not that I think that you would try to take us as much money as you can but I have supported others projects before that ended up on nothing and I put a lot of money, I don't know if you would read this but the game would be better if it were more sandbox, like go to the work in the morning and talking with others in the night and weekend, I don't know if the program you use is able to do something like that but it would be nice, and I would be pleased to put more money in a game like that, I love your game, but I will wait to see how you keep it in the future, best of lucks for you and I hope your game do good.
Thanks for the feedback! So is it the parts where you talk to Sophie/Maddie etc that you'd rather skip, to focus on just doing the work? Is that right?
I didn't mean it like that, it would be nice to have conversations with characters off work, that way we can see more of the life's of the different characters, that way you could put more text an history in the game, I loved the game but im going to put it on wait for now, but best of lucks for you ;)
Ahh I see! More conversations before and after work. I'll add more content like that for sure!
The idea to try make us pay twice for the same game wasn't very nice of you, I won't buy it again, and I feel straight up cheated. This bullshit about the game being slow is just an excuse.
It's not the same game, this is a sequel. Sorry for the confusion
It's not a different game, it's clearly a continuation of the first.
I'm stuck on one of the levels. Ingrid said that I have to pick the photos with eyebrows or lips, no nipples and when I do exactly that it says that I got some wrong. I have tried with no bare buts and other ones to bot the same response. Any help?
I've just tested this & I think everything is correct. Bare butts are definitely ok (in Day 15 anyway), as long as there is a face (lips & eyebrows) & no nipples.
Are you supposed to get it wrong multiple times? I tried the same thing again now and it said that I got one wrong and don't let it happen again. And then it continued to the next level.
I'm so confused
I don't suppose you could tell me exactly which bit it was? What did Ingrid say exactly afterwards? It's possible I've got this wrong and need to fix it, but can't find the bit you mean
And now it works fine
Why do people complain to pay again, this is a very awesome and enjoyable game for a price of 2$, we received more than we pay for. Some games is more pricey but boring. It's not like the game is 10$, if it makes you entertained then what we pay for is worth it. <3
Thanks so much for saying this 😀
'this is a very awesome and enjoyable game for a price of 2$"
Which is what we paid, with the promise that we'd get the full game. Now the dev has decided to double the price, and leave those unwilling to pay with access the only half the game.
Hey man, great content and game, good idea to make that part 2 for you to be able to continue, and I'm happy to send some more money to have access to it, you truly deserve it !
One only regret on the games, choices aren't important through chapters, like if you say to Sophie that you love bushes, she will shaved anyway !
But still the game is super cool ! Take care and keep it up
Thanks for the feedback! I'll take that onboard & will try & male it feel more meaningful in future!
Sadly i can't buy it anymore 😩
Oh how come?
-237 on paypal i need to refund them
Oh blimey, how did this happen?! 😆
Im streamer i got an donation but e ask a refund and i buy something with the money...
Oh I see, haha that's a tricky situation!
It should be cool at least release updates more fast to non patreons after they get it. I mean, you wait ages for an update to come and there's not even that much news about progress if you're not on patreon. I'd like to afford to subscribe to you, but converting currency for my country is insane.
Sorry for the slow updates. I manage to mostly create a new chapter every month. That's faster than a lot of games, but I'll try to be faster.
Is there a way for people who *paid for the game before* to get this version for free? This feels like a cash grab.
This is disappointing, I paid for lewd mod, now I can't even get the updates without paying more. Sad
Sorry! Unfortunately the file I was using was getting too long & slow, so that's why I'm continuing the story in a sequel. I just couldn't add more content into that file.
I mean you can upload more then two files on the same page
Oh and its not to hate or anything I really like the game, and I don't mind paying for it. If you wonna charge the itch.io people 2$ for a part 2 thats fine. Just be honest about it. People love transparency.
So now even if we've purchased lewd mod 1 we have to rebuy it if we ever want any other update?
Unfortunately the file I was using was getting too long & slow, so that's why I'm continuing the story in a sequel. Lewd mod 1 has 14 chapters, and the new chapters will be added to lewd mod 2.
This is nonsense. You could have added part 2 to the part 1 page, or made part 2 free
I'm sad that this game was split into another part. I wish I could support on Patreon but as of now I can't (difficult to set up that system where I am). :( It's really fun to play through and I hope we itch.io players get Day 16 as soon as possible :D Thanks for your hard work!
Thanks for your support! Unfortunately the file I was using was getting too long & slow, so that's why I'm continuing the story in a sequel.
what does this mean for lewd mod 1? is that version no longer getting updated now?
Yes the story will continue in this game. Unfortunately I had to start on a new file because the software was getting too slow as the story was getting longer.
why do I need to buy it a second time because of that though?
Greed.
Sorry if you feel like that. The price of the game is quite cheap though, & I do spend a long time making it every month. Unfortunately I can't work for free
It's a shame that much people don't see this, the creation of artistic content is valuable, I'm happy that you have decided to continue this project, I'll buy it as many parts as you publish! Keep up the good work!
No one is asking you to work for free, just to deliver what you promised for the amount you chose to charge.
I'm not asking you to make the game free but I've already bought it once no matter how cheap it is